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WarriorWarrior

Instead Of Buying Real Magazines,

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http://www.zzap64.co.uk/zzuperstore.html

They already have them scanned in and are sellin them for fairly expensive prices. I'm wondering, maybe it's a good idea for retromags to expand its collection by getting from them somehow, and hosting the magazines for free for download purposes over here? I'd sure like to get my hands on mean machines.

:mellow:

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if they scanned them, its thier work- hosting them for free when they sell them can be considered wrong (if not legally, at least morally. Don't forget, you're talking to (some) people who actually SCAN things, not just people looking to get something for nothing).

Secondly, if you want to contribute, but cannot scan for us, perhaps you'd be kind enough to buy one or two and share them with us?

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Guest 420
if they scanned them, its thier work- hosting them for free when they sell them can be considered wrong (if not legally, at least morally. Don't forget, you're talking to (some) people who actually SCAN things, not just people looking to get something for nothing).

Secondly, if you want to contribute, but cannot scan for us, perhaps you'd be kind enough to buy one or two and share them with us?

Yeah, what he said B)

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Hello again,

But, if I did buy one of the discs available in that online store, wouldn't that give me the right to do what I want with those scans? Which would include sharing them on P2P networks, and like you say, share with you? Wouldn't that be exactly what Retromags would be doing by purchasing a disc? Buying the right to do whatever Retromags wants to do with it, which is share it with you, share it with everyone here?

Legally: What gives Mort (the guy responsible for Zzap64 Superstore content) the right to sell those scans for his own profit, when the content of those scans is owned by Newsfield (among other publishing organisations). He's already removed Future Publishing content because of his 'legal' standing and the fact he doesn't own the rights.

Morally: I really don't see an issue with Retromags expanding its content using content made available from Mort, it's not like he's got exclusive rights to scanning and selling those select magazines. He'd get the money for it, from Retromags, which would then give Retromags the right to host them for everyone. I don't see a problem with that?

More on of being legally and morally wrong: Surely Retromags would be doing less of a wrong by making them available >FREE< in packs via newsgroup, bittorrent (like with the current work being done) than Mort is by selling them? To be honest, I don't know how Mort lives with himself, skinning people alive for ?14.99 for a single DVD. So, baring in mind the selfishness involved in selling these for profit, and getting down to the blatant obviousness; maybe morally, Mort's in the wrong?

I've seen Mort upload his content to World of Spectrum for example. Maybe asking him wouldn't be such a bad idea, rather than just dismiss the idea so quickly? What's stopping Retromags asking Mort for the rights to host his scans? He can dip into his empty sack of rights and pass them on to Retromags.

This may be 20 questions, but they're all rhetorical, so no need to answer each of them. Just give what I say some thought and think about it.

Best regards,

WarriorWarrior

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If Mort opts to share the scans for free on RetroMags then that's fine. I think that the main issue is that it is important that it is his decision. The "official" legal rights are not as much in question as recognition of the effort that an individual went through to scan the mags. Scanning takes a lot of time and effort and as we have seen on this forum, people can get VERY pissed off if they feel that their efforts are either unappreciated or taken advantage of. My general philosophy of life is to avoid making other people angry at me if I can (within reason) do so.

I woudn't say that buying the disc from Mort gives anyone the right to share the content freely unless Mort (who put forth the effort to scan the mags) says that it's OK to do so.

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"But, if I did buy one of the discs available in that online store, wouldn't that give me the right to do what I want with those scans? Which would include sharing them on P2P networks, and like you say, share with you? Wouldn't that be exactly what Retromags would be doing by purchasing a disc? "

If i go buy a copy of Windows XP, would that give me the rigth to do what I want with THAT disc and its contents?

Again, if you think buying the disc and sharing the contents for free is ok, i invite you to step up and buy a disc, then share it with the retromags community for free. This is a group project, everyone helps and contributes. That can be your contribution.

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If Mort opts to share the scans for free on RetroMags then that's fine. I think that the main issue is that it is important that it is his decision. The "official" legal rights are not as much in question as recognition of the effort that an individual went through to scan the mags.

I agree, if Mort is to upload them to us without Retromags paying for them, Retromags should indeed get Mort's permission first. It's the morally right thing to do. And, they are his scans... but... the content of the scans aren't legally his to sell (as I've already pointed out).

Scanning takes a lot of time and effort and as we have seen on this forum, people can get VERY pissed off if they feel that their efforts are either unappreciated or taken advantage of.

And they have every right to be, if their scans aren't included in the Retromags project (or edited without permission and screwed around with in some way - what a great sign of disrespect!) and credited accordingly for those scans (e.g. thanked in the official Retromags .nfo file). This is an example of the right way of getting credit, rather than the wrong way, which would be to sell extortionately priced DVDs to multiple individual customers. What an easy way to make money!? Scan a few magazines and profit on the same scans, time and time again. Scan magazines in once, back them up, get DVD burner at the ready, and you've got your own mini-production line! Sell to the world! Double your money, try to get rich!

My general philosophy of life is to avoid making other people angry at me if I can (within reason) do so.

Good philosophy. Best not to piss off those bouncers in the nightclub or some 6'8" hulking mound of muscle.

I woudn't say that buying the disc from Mort gives anyone the right to share the content freely unless Mort (who put forth the effort to scan the mags) says that it's OK to do so.

This is where I have to say, I disagree with you. I'll use an analogy to better explain why: If you buy a video game for standard RRP (retail price), and your friend asks if he can borrow it, would you get on the phone to publisher/developer of said game and ask them for permission first? Answer: No! Of course not - you'll lend it out to whoever you damn well please and maybe would even let them copy it or rip it to their PC and share it online with others. After all, you paid ?30-40 for it.

If Mort freely and willingly lets Retromags have his scans, then credit him like any other donator/scanner's credited here. If Retromags has to BUY the scans from him like everyone else, I really don't see why he should be credited at all, since you've purchased the item, you can do whatever it is you want with it, which is lend the disc out to friends, or share them on your own personal network or public one.

The only thing Mort cares about is making money from his scans, as shown by those ridiculous prices he charges. I'm sure he'll be very happy to sell to Retromags, thus, giving retromags ownership of the DVD purchased, thus giving Retromags the right to do whatever it damn well wants with the contents.

This is buying and selling. This is how it works.

Regards,

WarriorWarrior.

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If i go buy a copy of Windows XP, would that give me the rigth to do what I want with THAT disc and its contents?

Yes, you can put your marker pen squiggles on the disc, and customize the disc contents (the OS itself) by adding programs to it and reburning to a backup bootable OS disc. You have that right because you bought the disc. If you're talking about legally distributing over the net, then of course you're not allowed to do that, just as Mort isn't allowed to legally distribute the contents of his scans. Yes, the actual 'images', they're copyrighted, just like Nintendo Power's are.

Again, if you think buying the disc and sharing the contents for free is ok, i invite you to step up and buy a disc, then share it with the retromags community for free. This is a group project, everyone helps and contributes. That can be your contribution.

I've made a suggestion to Retromags to make their work-load lighter (which is a contribution in itself - so I don't know where you and some others are getting the impression I'm not contributing from). If they're going to scan in magazines then maybe use a source of already scanned in images, to save re-scanning them later? It's not my responsibility to buy these discs and share them for nothing, but if I was filthy rich, I might just do that. Retromags, however, with all the donations it has, and thus, the funding it has to go buying paper magazines on eBay, maybe would be used wisely by investing in actual already-made scans too? Here's something more for you to think about. Has Retromags asked the publisher of PSM magazine, after buying off eBay, (for example) if they can scan and distribute the pages online in electronic format?

I find it ironic that you are saying, no it's not alright to buy and share Mort's scans on Retromags, but then again, you're saying it's alright for ME MYSELF, to go and buy from Mort and share with Retromags. To me, this sounds like you actually think it's a good idea for Retromags to distribute Mort's scans after purchasing the discs.

Kind regards,

WarriorWarrior.

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Guest 420

I think we all understand that everyone (us and mort) is in some way braking a copyright. What most of us don't want to do is steal from another scanner (even if that scanner is an a$$hole selling scans).

I know that a couple of those dvd have already been converted to pdf and released as a torrent on a certin rom site, and I don't really see anything wrong with that. But Retromags is about putting out our own HQ scans, not repacking other people's scans.

That's my 2 cents :)

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Retromags is about putting out our own HQ scans, not repacking other people's scans.

Fair enough, but I thought Retromags had its magazines scanned in by numerous third party sources (as the request for scanners on the front page emphasises)? So essentially, you're repacking their scans and releasing them under Retromags trimmings.

High admin or high chief and commander of Retromags should at least ask Mort to upload his scans to Retromags, as he's done so already with World of Spectrum and Sinclair-Heaven, if you don't feel comfortable with buying them and then just sharing them here. This would give Mort a chance to redeem himself in a way, because he wouldn't look like, as you say, such an "a$$hole", if he's willing to share them for free.

Regards,

WarriorWarrior

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Guest 420
Fair enough, but I thought Retromags had its magazines scanned in by numerous third party sources (as the request for scanners on the front page emphasises)? So essentially, you're repacking their scans and releasing them under Retromags trimmings.

High admin or high chief and commander of Retromags should at least ask Mort to upload his scans to Retromags, as he's done so already with World of Spectrum and Sinclair-Heaven, if you don't feel comfortable with buying them and then just sharing them here. This would give Mort a chance to redeem himself in a way, because he wouldn't look like, as you say, such an "a$$hole", if he's willing to share them for free.

Regards,

WarriorWarrior

Anyone scanning for Retromags is part of the team and clearly not "third party"...but that is a moot point.

And I would like to point out that I know nothing of who this Mort guy is, I just really, really dislike the idea of selling scans. We don't own the rights...trying to make money off them is just wrong and it makes the whole scanning community look bad.

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Warrior-

after reading the last 6 or so posts, a very productive and mature converstion, you've said a bit a disagree with, but also a bit i agree with. In no specific order:

not to get into a big conversation, but when you buy windows on cd, you're actually not allowed to do what you want with it. You can draw all over the cd, because its YOUR DISC, but you're only paying to use a copy (or two, whatever the deal is) of the OS. You can add software to the computer with that OS installed, but if you read the whole agreement (and on occasions, I have had to, for work, etc.).. some/most are very strict about altering the software. Forget backing it up- thats allowed, or at least, not a problem, but you arent allowed to reverse-engineer (ie modify) the actual windows code and stuff, even for your own personal use- forget the fact that noone cares, but if you're going on the honor system, most software has stipulations like that. Not that i agree or not, just throwin it out there for the hell of it. I like to talk;)

Second point, about this guy Mort supposedly getting rich of his scans- you're probably right. He ran a certain expense (be it time, scanners, money for old magazines, whatever)... once he recoups that cost, then what he sells (minus the 30 cents for a blank dvd, and a few cents for electricity, envelope, etc), he's making money off the deal... and i don't like that idea either. I scanned a lot, and although I'd LOVE to make a profit off it, i wouldnt.. maybe Mort and i just see it differently... but either way, thats the way it is.

As for my coming off so cocky about it at first, forgive me. I tend to get angry when I see posts that sound like people just wanting something for nothing. There have been posts of people who only complained about quality without even thanking anyone for thier time and work, people requesting like 40 issues of Nintendo Power without offering anything in return, etc... so i tend to get jumpy prematurely;)

My point when I suggested you buy them wasn't to say it's wrong for us, but ok if you're spending the money. Again, the first line of your original post came off to me as 'can you guys buy these and give them away free because I want a copy'. it seems clear you didn't mean that, so again, I apologize.

As for the point of giving away someone else's work, I just think its wrong- but theres not much that can be done. Like I think 420 said, once the first person got a copy of his work, it was out there open to the public for free (most likely, just hard as hell to find)... thats the nature of the internet- anything can be shared like crazy. The way I see it, mort is requiring donations for his work, whereas we do not- however we just suggest it, as a way to keep working (ie buy more mags). I havent read morts site too well, but is he still working on scanning other things, or is this all? If this is all, then anything over his costs defintely is profit, if he's not using it to move forward.

The whole issue of buying his stuff and sharing it, i just think its not the right thing to do, but I totally see your point- and im sure i've done it at times (buy a cd, split the cost with someone, copy it for them, etc), but to flat out post it on a website like this, i think its going too far. If you were just to find and Private message a few people interested in it, and split the costs with them and not make it a big public thing, i think that might be a more reasonable solution- at least then the general public wouldn't be given full access to it, just the people that contributed towards it (even though each person put in less than the full amount, mort still gets to recoup some money.. or profit, whatever he's doing).

On a side note behind all this, I didn't realize till your last post that mort's prices are in GBP. Anyone in USA that didnt realize, thats close to double USA dollars- Mort's asking nearly 30 bucks a dvd....

Thanks for at least having this conversation in maturity. Plenty of other people would have been sarcastic and vulgar by now;)

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not to get into a big conversation, but when you buy windows on cd, you're actually not allowed to do what you want with it. You can draw all over the cd, because its YOUR DISC, but you're only paying to use a copy (or two, whatever the deal is) of the OS. You can add software to the computer with that OS installed, but if you read the whole agreement (and on occasions, I have had to, for work, etc.).. some/most are very strict about altering the software. Forget backing it up- thats allowed, or at least, not a problem, but you arent allowed to reverse-engineer (ie modify) the actual windows code and stuff, even for your own personal use- forget the fact that noone cares, but if you're going on the honor system, most software has stipulations like that. Not that i agree or not, just throwin it out there for the hell of it. I like to talk;)

You can do with it exactly what I said in my previous post. :huh:

Second point, about this guy Mort supposedly getting rich of his scans- you're probably right. He ran a certain expense (be it time, scanners, money for old magazines, whatever)... once he recoups that cost, then what he sells (minus the 30 cents for a blank dvd, and a few cents for electricity, envelope, etc), he's making money off the deal... and i don't like that idea either. I scanned a lot, and although I'd LOVE to make a profit off it, i wouldnt.. maybe Mort and i just see it differently... but either way, thats the way it is.

So we agree on the fact that what Mort is doing is wrong.

Why shouldn't Retromags take his discs and distribute them for free as part of the Retromags' archive? Retromags would be putting Mort's wrong right. He sells, Retromags buys with donation funding, then takes the scans, which Retromags paid for, then distribute the contents of those scans illegally, as its doing with the Nintendo Power and all the others. Just like the Windows XP disc (speaking analogously in referral to Retromags' possesion of Mort's scan DVDs), you buy it (same as buying Mort's DVD(s)), you put the OS on your computer, add programs to it, burn to a bootable backup disc for own use (basically, Retromags does what it wants with the scans, since it paid for them). Since you can't legally distribute the XP disc, you illegally distribute it online, in modified form if we wish it (in terms of Retromags: Magazines distributed online in scanned form and touched up (ie, modified, and in CBR archives)).

That IS. the way it is.

As for my coming off so cocky about it at first, forgive me. I tend to get angry when I see posts that sound like people just wanting something for nothing. There have been posts of people who only complained about quality without even thanking anyone for thier time and work, people requesting like 40 issues of nintendo power without offering anything in return, etc... so i tend to get jumpy prematurely;)

My point when I suggested you buy them wasn't to say it's wrong for us, but ok if you're spending the money. Again, the first line of your original post came off to me as 'can you guys buy these and give them away free because I want a copy'. it seems clear you didn't mean that, so again, I apologize.

Apology accepted, but first impressions are so important in this modern world, and the first impression I had of you wasn't a good one; but, having said that, I'm not here to make friends, just to do a bit of business and help out a project.

As for the point of giving away someone else's work, I just think its wrong- but theres not much that can be done. Like I think 420 said, once the first person got a copy of his work, it was out there open to the public for free (most likely, just hard as hell to find)... thats the nature of the internet- anything can be shared like crazy. The way I see it, mort is requiring donations for his work, whereas we do not- however we just suggest it, as a way to keep working (ie buy more mags). I havent read morts site too well, but is he still working on scanning other things, or is this all? If this is all, then anything over his costs defintely is profit, if he's not using it to move forward.

Hang on... "donations for his work"?? He's blatantly selling his scans, which we've already agreed upon?? He's selling his work. By doing that, he's saying, "hey, you buy this, and you've got a DVDs worth of scans to do what you want with - cool eh?". Retromags = consumer, Mort = salesperson. Retromags purchases to shelve his product, much like a retail business would purchase from a supplier to put on their shelves. It is no different from Retromags buying paper mags from eBay and distributing the contents of those mags online. Again, I reiterate for emphasis; it's "no different".

As for Retromags not requiring donations, this isn't strictly true. From what I've seen, certain things (like certain scans) are offlimits until donations are given. Yeah, I've had a look around the forum. However, I do like the Retromags' system and am in full support of it, so long as mags are eventually distributed for free and they're not "blatantly sold", as Mort's doing.

Mort's always scanning in things from what I can tell. He's recently put up Dragon User DVD "for sale".

The whole issue of buying his stuff and sharing it, i just think its not the right thing to do, but I totally see your point- and im sure i've done it at times (buy a cd, split the cost with someone, copy it for them, etc), but to flat out post it on a website like this, i think its going too far. If you were just to find and Private message a few people interested in it, and split the costs with them and not make it a big public thing, i think that might be a more reasonable solution- at least then the general public wouldn't be given full access to it, just the people that contributed towards it (even though each person put in less than the full amount, mort still gets to recoup some money.. or profit, whatever he's doing).

Again, we agree that selling it is wrong.

The public donates to this site, which gives them a right to see the magazines purchased with their money shared with them (the public), by putting them out through Retromags. Which makes the using donation money to purchase from Mort and distribute, all the more of a good idea! d:-)

I don't see what differences it makes to share Mort's scans with a few people (after purchase) rather than Retromags. The moral principle of doing either remains the same. You either don't distribute or distribute. There's no inbetween. Technically, as stated above, donations are cost split between Retromags users, in much the same way it'd be cost split between you and a few friends. Sure, a few non-retromags users would get a hold of them too, ie, via newsgroups, but it's not like you're going to restrict your few friends use of those scans is it? They're spread it to non-friends of dstryr420 in much the same way Retromags spreads to non-Retromags people.

On a side note behind all this, I didn't realize till your last post that mort's prices are in GBP. Anyone in USA that didnt realize, thats close to double USA dollars- Mort's asking nearly 30 bucks a dvd....

Thanks for at least having this conversation in maturity. Plenty of other people would have been sarcastic and vulgar by now;)

Yes, extortionately priced! Which makes it even more of a p?sstake to even suggest Mort has any rights over his scans when they're in *YOUR* hands after purchase. I could very well buy a few discs and slap my name on his scans and upload them to Retromags, if I had the cash to spare off my non-existent money tree.

It's not logical to waste loads of time scanning the same mags in again when they're already available. That could be time spent scanning in magazines which aren't already scanned.

Whether you or/and Retromags agrees with it or not (I'd prefer it if they did - hence this thread), I'm a logical thinker and I've had much thought on the matter, and I conclude I am very right. If I ever do buy his discs, I will be sure to share them via torrent websites.

Again, apology accepted. I'm very aware of the sarcastic and vulgar majority that populate the net and have begun to expect abrupt and presumptuous retorts from those sorts of people; which is why I find no offense from reading their posts. My eyes roll though and I'll maybe sigh a bit, but other than that, nothing. On a side-note here, business is impossible to be done with those types of people, because they've already arrogantly and ignorantly made their minds up.

Regards,

WarriorWarrior

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At last, seeing things my way! :)

Retromags doesn't need money to pay for the entire archive. Just the ones that aren't available anywhere else (e.g. world of spectrum). Like the Amtix and the Mean Machines. I doubt costs would be anymore than what you're already paying for paper mags off eBay.

I'd donate if you're going to go ahead and do this.

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At last, seeing things my way! :)

Retromags doesn't need money to pay for the entire archive. Just the ones that aren't available anywhere else (e.g. world of spectrum). Like the Amtix and the Mean Machines. I doubt costs would be anymore than what you're already paying for paper mags off ebay.

I'd donate if you're going to go ahead and do this.

Sure .....Pick a donation amount and let me know which collection it should go towards :)

Click my Signature to donate

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I'm just wondering what the progress is on this, Phillyman?

Would be great if "some" of these magazine dvd content were released in a big torrent like your awesome work on the Nintendo Power.

Maybe we can come to some sort of arrangement on a select DVD? I'd be willing to give a couple of my earth pounds to the Retromag pot if say, we got about 5 or 7 willing people to pitch in to buy the disc?

Just a thought.

Regards

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Looks to be $438 for his whole collection ......Whos donating first? :P

Wonder if he'd provide a discount for a full archive purchase...

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At last, seeing things my way! :)

Retromags doesn't need money to pay for the entire archive. Just the ones that aren't available anywhere else (e.g. world of spectrum). Like the Amtix and the Mean Machines. I doubt costs would be anymore than what you're already paying for paper mags off ebay.

I'd donate if you're going to go ahead and do this.

Don't waste your time with the Spectrum stuff, it's all available free from World Of Spectrum's many ftps around the world. Actually right now PleasureDome (the emulation torrent site) is about to get a 27gb archive of Spectrum magazines posted on a torrent, which I'm sure some people here would love to get their hands on as I *believe* its pretty much every single Speccy mag there is.

All it seems Mort wants is payment for his hours of work he put into scanning the mags. A good return on investment? Definitely in the long run, but he's selling something that is an extreme niche product, he'd have to advertise to hell to get enough return on investment. If it's beer that most of the extra bucks go towards, I sure hope his scans aren't blurry! :huh:

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I don't know, there's so much out there that hasn't been tapped by any other outside source that Retromags should prolly concentrate on before worrying about putting up big bucks to buy an already scanned collection.

One of the things that makes this site very desirable to someone like me who has been involved in emulation for a long time is that everyone is taking pride in their own work and contributing something, be it scanning, editing, distributing, every step in the process. I don't know if getting someone else's collection and just pimping it out falls into that moniker.

There are so many other areas that are untapped. GamePro, GameFan, NextGen, fanzines, and for that matter, full length strategy guides that have not been scanned by anyone, that seems like where the best donations and time and sweat and blood ought to be. I'm sure while Philly wants donations, he's not rolling in the dough either, so bang for the buck has to be something that's taken into account.

Whether it's wrong for Mort to sell stuff like he does? $30 a disc seems a bit absurd, but yeah, we don't know the work involved, and I'm sure he is taking into account people doing exactly what we're talking about, copying it for friends. I doubt that he's got Starforce protection on that bad boy! :)

My two cents, I'll conveniently stay out of the initial argument.

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Hi Mort Here,

I have no problem donating the scans as you know they are currently available freely on World of Spectrum and Sinclair Heaven here in the Uk. Main reason for making the dvd`s is to fund buying more mags to preserve and give to the community. I don`t agree with the torrent idea as it is a lazy way of getting the info for Generation Gimme :D

Just for the record each mag costs me about ?300 to source from eBay and about 1 year to collate with the extras that came with the mag (all the dvd`s have all the covertapes, posters and inlays so they are good value IMHO) and are donationware (you can always download the Vanilla mags if you want), also the British mags on average have between 7-10,000 pages in a complete run! and I have had a thumbs up from Newsfield and have had ok`s from other publishers who were pleased someone had preserved the old mags (can`t mention names as they agreed with the idea in principle).

Anyhow dropped Phillyman an email to ask where to send the dvd`s.

Glad to be of help

Mort

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Nice one Mort! I knew you'd be willing to donate if asked. You've really proven yourself to have a decent emulation community spirit.

I knew combining sources with ZzapSuperstore was a good idea. I'm glad it's worked out.

Mort, would there be any chance of donating the Superplay stuff to Retromags? I hear that you aren't allowed to sell it at your store, so maybe you'd be willing to let Retromags basically seed it to ensure it's legacy lives on in more than one household?

Great work, Mort!

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I'm sure while Philly wants donations, he's not rolling in the dough either, so bang for the buck has to be something that's taken into account.

LOL, you didn't just see the big screen TV his girlfriend just bought? You think phillyman makes that kind of money working at Kinko's?

(j/k, couldn't resist) ;)

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Guest 420
You think phillyman makes that kind of money working at Kinko's?

I thought he worked at Bestbuy......

That also explains the "cough" free "cough,cough" TV...

J/K :lol::lol::lol:

:P

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LOL, you didn't just see the big screen TV his girlfriend just bought? You think phillyman makes that kind of money working at Kinko's?

(j/k, couldn't resist) ;)

Thats my Girlfriends Brothers TV ....not hers or mine :cry:

I thought he worked at bestbuy......

That also explains the "cough" free "cough,cough" TV...

J/K :lol::lol::lol:

:P

I work 2 jobs ....one is a grocery store and the other is for Geeksquad (aka Bestbuy)

Wonder if he'd provide a discount for a full archive purchase...

I wonder the same about you :P

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